Longtime activist and anti-poverty advocate the Rev. William Barber II is challenging House Speaker Mike Johnson to a theological debate over President Donald Trump’s immigration policies, responding to Johnson’s open-ended offer this week to debate “anybody any time they want to.”

Barber made the challenge Feb. 5 during an interview on the Religion News Service podcast “Complexified,” produced in partnership with the Iliff Institute for Religion, Politics & Culture. The episode is set to be released Monday. 

“I want to have that debate with him,” Barber told the host, the Rev. Amanda Henderson. 

Johnson, a Southern Baptist who spent years with the conservative Christian legal group Alliance Defending Freedom, offered a different interpretation of biblical teachings on immigration when asked Wednesday about criticism of Trump’s policies from Pope Leo. 

While acknowledging the Bible calls on believers to “welcome the sojourner,” Johnson said the command is “an admonition to individuals, not to the civil authorities.” He cited Romans 13, saying civil authorities are “agents of wrath to bring punishment upon the wrongdoer,” and added that “assimilation” of immigrants is “expected and anticipated.” 

“Sovereign borders are biblical and right, and they’re just,” Johnson said. “It’s not because we hate the people on the outside, it’s because we love the people on the inside.” He added, “I’m happy to have this lengthy debate with anybody any time they want to.” 

Barber said Johnson’s interpretation misrepresents the New Testament teachings of Jesus. 

“He reveals that he doesn’t know the Bible,” Barber said. “He reveals that he certainly doesn’t know Jesus. There’s no Jesus in anything he just said.” 

Barber said Johnson’s argument focuses on Hebrew Bible passages rather than Jesus’ words in the New Testament. 

“Let’s talk about what Jesus said: Welcome the stranger. End of story. Case one. Drop the mic,” Barber said. “And he didn’t say it to individuals — he said it to the nations.” He added, “Why would the state have killed Jesus if Jesus wasn’t challenging the state?” 

Representatives for Johnson did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

Barber has been invited to public debates with conservative religious leaders before. In 2017, he and the Rev. Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove challenged Liberty University leaders to a debate on political theology. In 2019, Liberty’s Falkirk Center invited them to discuss whether Jesus was a socialist; the offer was ultimately rejected. 

Trump’s immigration policies have drawn widespread responses from faith communities. Religious leaders have protested federal enforcement actions, and around 100 clergy and faith leaders were arrested in Minneapolis last month while protesting the presence of Department of Homeland Security agents. Hundreds more attended training sessions on resisting Trump’s immigration agenda, and dozens of religious groups have filed lawsuits against aspects of the policies.